Posts by Island Man

55

Why do ones that got out come back in?

by moreconfusedthanever in

i have not been to a meeting for about 2 years now.

i do not intend to go back but one thing has me baffled.

why do ones that have faded and been out for years return?

Island Man

Various reasons:

They left for lifestyle reasons, never learned TTATT and still considered Watchtower as The Truth, so faced with a life crisis or changed outlook on life, they return to Watchtower like the prodigal son.
They return as PIMO just so they can restore family relationships and possibly try to wake up family members.
They were stumbled out by a single incident and never did any thorough research to grasp the full depth and scope of TTATT so they later fall for BS JW apologetic excuses and rationalizations for why it's still The Truth.

So it basically boils down to two reasons: They never made TTATT their own, or they're coming back PIMO to restore family contact.

4

On our Tendency to Hang Labels on Others

by snugglebunny in

jw
friends

back to my favourite pet hate of "labelling", ie, someone has such and such an opinion so consequently he must therefore be a part of this or that particular group.

what tosh.

(btw, i've decided that it's ok for politicians to be labelled.

There's nothing wrong with labels. They're a convenient way to quickly identify a person's position on a particular matter. The problem is when labels are misused by making them a barrier to learning more about the individual nuances of a person's position; or when we let label's obscure a person's identity by thinking of them only in terms of the label instead of seeing it as just a label that identifies just one aspect of a person who is much more than the label.

17

Does Christianity Promote Self Hatred?

by Brokeback Watchtower in

i think that christianity's teachings pose a very unproductive world view and are a danger to our survival.

their teachings that man is sinful and worthy of death and in need of a savior to rescue him and free him of his sinful tendencies or else feel the wrath of god.

these things that condemn man as sinful are his own powerful drives given to him at conception which he now must deny due to indoctrination and consign to his shadow(jungian).

Island Man

Yes, I'd say that a religion that encourages its followers to consider themselves as being "good-for-nothing slaves" with bodies enslaved to sin's law and who should disown themselves and despise their family and their own life for the sake of Jesus, definitely promotes self hatred.

20

North Korean Gift to "American Bastards" for Independence Day

by cofty in

nk has taken another important step towards having a viable nuclear arsenal with the successful trial of an icbm.. kim jong-un says new missile is 'gift' to 'american bastards' from north korea on independence day.. one major hurdle left for kim jong-un is working out how to make his nuclear bombs small enough to be delivered by the missile.

that is not an insurmountable obstacle.. the us sate department have issued a statement stating that it "will never accept a nuclear-armed north korea".

how exactly to prevent this outcome is not clear.

Island Man

It looks like military action is the US' only option now. My guess is that they will strike NK military infrastructure with some powerful bunker-busters and maybe even some MOABs. They will attempt to cripple North Korea's military capabilities. The US will have to do it quickly and thoroughly to prevent them from striking back at US allies and US territories in the region.

20

North Korean Gift to "American Bastards" for Independence Day

by cofty in

nk has taken another important step towards having a viable nuclear arsenal with the successful trial of an icbm.. kim jong-un says new missile is 'gift' to 'american bastards' from north korea on independence day.. one major hurdle left for kim jong-un is working out how to make his nuclear bombs small enough to be delivered by the missile.

that is not an insurmountable obstacle.. the us sate department have issued a statement stating that it "will never accept a nuclear-armed north korea".

how exactly to prevent this outcome is not clear.

Island Man

North Korea, a country that hasn't invaded any foreign country ever

I'm not so sure about that. Wasn't it their invasion or attempted invasion of South Korea that started the Korean War?

34

Oct 2017 WT again shunning instructions

by Daniel1555 in

.

Island Man

It is interesting how they used the word normal - "normal contact". I think this is a weasel word. They can later use it to argue that they have never told Witnesses to cut off all contact - to shun - just to cut off normal contact.

16

They should show this 2 minute video about 1975 at the convention

by LevelThePlayingField in

if only there was a way to hack in and play this.

:).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bmca1qdhho&feature=push-u&attr_tag=3yku113wrp-khxdt-6.

Island Man

After listening to the audio clip at the end of the video that said "stay alive to 75" it just occurred to me that this was all just a terrible misunderstanding. The brother wasn't saying to stay alive to 1975. He was saying to make sure you live to the age of 75. You evil apostates are just twisting the brother's words to mean something else. 😄

25

Aust Census Data shows decrease while Yearbook shows increase

by shepherdless in

on threads about 8 or 9 months ago, i put up some detailed data from the 2011 and 2006 australian censuses.

data from the 2016 census is becoming available in stages, and i mentioned recently that i would do an update.

finally, as of about today, some data of interest is available, and i have started to look at this, but it is time consuming, and i am time-poor.. anyway, the first search i have conducted is just a simple breakdown of the number of people describing themselves as jw's.

Island Man

I think it means that there are a lot of POMO and PIMO JWs in Australia and the rate of growth of this demographic is greater than the rate of growth of POMI and PIMI demographic. Because Watchtower is looking at growth rate only in terms of actual new recruits as a percentage of baptized members, there could indeed be an increase in this figure. But the national census is looking at all who are willing to identify as JW, which would include MI X-JW, MI inactive JWs and even unbaptized publishers and MI bible students. So there must be a lot more MI X-JWs and MI inactive JWs who are going MO.

The national census reflects the growth rate of the number of mental JWs. The Watchtower figures represent the growth rate of the number of physical JWs. The growth rate of mental JWs is reducing but the growth rate of the number of physical JWs is increasing.

11

Why I think the Trinity doctrine is an irrelevant talking point with JWs, and what I believe could be a better approach.

by Island Man in

there are no authentic/uncontested bible verses that prove a trinity.

the trinity doctrine is arrived at by inferences - not unlike the way that jws arrive at the doctrine that jesus is michael the archangel.

the jw proof texts against the trinity are at least as strong, if not stronger than, trinity proof texts.

Island Man

Another approach that can be taken is to bring up the issue of the copper serpent in the wilderness. The mosaic law forbade the making of idols and being induced to serve them or look to them for salvation. Yet later, God brought a plague of poisonous snakes on the Israelites because of their disobedience. He then instructed Moses to make the graven image of a copper serpent and instruct the people to look to it to gain salvation from the venom of the poisonous snakes.

Most JWs will readily admit that what the Israelites were doing with the copper serpent would, under normal circumstances, be regarded as a form of idolatry but since this was a command of Jehovah that they were following it was legitimate - a God sanctioned exception to the general rule against idolatry. This is what you jump on. You mention the fact that Jesus himself, in the gospel of John, mentioned that this copper serpent's role in saving the Israelites prefigured his role in saving all from sin.

If God made an exception to his rule against idolatry to use the idol of a copper serpent to save the Israelites, how can JWs be sure that God hasn't also legitimized the worship of Jesus as being an exception to his general rule against worshipping others? And especially since the copper serpent prefigured Christ.

It can also be mentioned that the reason that worshiping God through idols is forbidden is that no idol can truly represent God. But this is not true of Jesus since Hebrews 1:3 describes Jesus as being the exact representation of God's very being. This would mean that, quite unlike any human-made idol, Jesus does qualify as an accurate representation of God and therefore worship of God through him - i.e. using Jesus as an "idol" - would be legitimate. Then you can tie in the scripture where Jesus said he that honors me honors the father and make the logical extrapolation that that would also inescapably mean that he that worships Jesus is worshiping the Father since worship and honor, according to JW theology, differs from each other only in degree.

11

Why I think the Trinity doctrine is an irrelevant talking point with JWs, and what I believe could be a better approach.

by Island Man in

there are no authentic/uncontested bible verses that prove a trinity.

the trinity doctrine is arrived at by inferences - not unlike the way that jws arrive at the doctrine that jesus is michael the archangel.

the jw proof texts against the trinity are at least as strong, if not stronger than, trinity proof texts.

Island Man

There are no authentic/uncontested Bible verses that prove a Trinity. The Trinity doctrine is arrived at by inferences - not unlike the way that JWs arrive at the doctrine that Jesus is Michael the archangel. The JW proof texts against the Trinity are at least as strong, if not stronger than, Trinity proof texts. When I had the JW mindset, the Trinity was really the least difficult teaching to refute. No scripture or argument that any Trinity believer ever said to me ever came close to getting me to doubt. So I think arguing the Trinity with JWs is actually quite enjoyable and much relished by them. It bolsters their faith that they have The Truth while the Trinitarians of christendom are so lost in believing man-made pagan teachings. So don't go there, don't do that.

Proving the Trinity is irrelevant. What is very relevant and what I think will have a much bigger impact on JWs is demonstrating to them, using their own Bible, the attitude that first century Christians and NT writers had toward Jesus. Show them the scriptures where the NT praises and honors Jesus to a degree that the JWs find very uncomfortable and disconcerting. Scriptures like 2 Peter 3:18 and Revelation 5:11-14. Point out the contrast with their attitude toward Jesus. It's not about whether or not Jesus is God or part of a Trinity - make this point clear to them. It's about whether or not they're honoring Jesus sufficiently, in harmony with the example of the NT writers and first century Christians. Ask them, rhetorically, what other JWs in the congregation would think of them if they started honoring Jesus in the manner that NT writers did. Get them to see that there is something very wrong about their view of honoring Jesus and ask them who would want them to not honor Jesus in line with the honor that the scriptures show him receiving.

Another approach can be to ask them why it is that there is not a single verse in all the NT - especially the epistles - that raises the issue of Christians wrongfully worshipping Jesus and being counseled against it. Mention the fact that this is very strange given the context that first century gentile Christians were coming from cultures steeped in polytheism where the worship of gods and their sons were relatively common, thus it is inconceivable that there would not have been gentile converts projecting this former way of worship unto their newfound faith of Christianity with many starting to worship Jesus. It is inconceivable that the influx of gentile Christians would not have seen this problem arising often enough or seriously enough as to warrant even a singular mention in all the NT. Yet, there are verses in the NT that are ambiguous enough to be interpreted or misinterpreted as legitimizing the worship of Jesus. So if the worship of Jesus is wrong and since the worship of gods and their sons was rampant in the first century how could the NT be so silent on this issue of the wrongful worship of Jesus even while containing verses that can so easily be seen as legitimizing his worship?

I think these approaches would be better than trying to argue a Trinity with them.